Difference between revisions of "Carbon dioxide collector"

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[[file:Atmosphere-composition-639x470.png|thumb|425px|There's plenty of building material in the atmosphere. [http://apm.bplaced.net/w/images/9/93/Atmosphere-composition.svg SVG] <br> (variable atmospheric humidity omitted) ]]
 
[[file:Atmosphere-composition-639x470.png|thumb|425px|There's plenty of building material in the atmosphere. [http://apm.bplaced.net/w/images/9/93/Atmosphere-composition.svg SVG] <br> (variable atmospheric humidity omitted) ]]
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['''todo:''' split off makro and self replicating aspect from this page]
 
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=Good ones and bad ones=
 
  
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Good ones are not self replicating maybe drop the extracted carbon down in form of graphite chips stop carbon extraction at a certain level and care about their fate after their end of service. They have a rather big size that makes handling them easier and may also watch out for bad ones.
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This page is about devices for the extraction of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere.
 +
The prime focus is earth's atmosphere.
  
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Bad ones use the extracted carbon [[the grey goo meme|solely for self replication]] and at some point start to produce nasty gasses like Cyanide (HCN) or nitrous gasses (NOx) suddenly and in huge amounts
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Two motivations must be separated:
 +
* greenhouse gas reduction
 +
* carbon extraction for productive use
  
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Both of them may endanger planes and create shadows hampering plant growth.
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Solar powered carbon dioxide collectors have the potential to fulfill the global energy needs and remove the excess CO<sub>2</sub> that had accumulated due to burning of fossil fuels along with other unwanted gases of industrial origin.
  
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Locating [[diamondoid solar cells|solar cells]] for CO<sub>2</sub> recuperation sparsely distributed in the air or on the sea instead of placing them concentrated in one place on the ground may be good for environmental (no paveover) and political reasons.
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= About the optimal size of devices =
  
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= Water =
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Devices for the removal of CO<sub>2</sub> from the atmosphere do not need and probably should not be able to do [[self replication]].
 +
Making such devices macroscopic seems to be a better alternative than making them in the micro- to nanoscale.
 +
Big devices:
 +
* can work more efficient -- just like pants pocket sized [[nanofactory|nanofactories]] can operate much more efficient than ultra compact (sub microscale) [[molecular assembler]]s
 +
* are obviously easier to handle (even collectible by hand)
 +
* are less problematic in regards to [[Mobility prevention guideline|environmental spill]]
 +
Side-notes:
 +
* Every conscientiously designed mobile (airborne/seaborne) device must care about its fate after their end of service.
 +
* Carbon extraction must stop at a certain level - otherwise '''all plants on earth may be in severe danger of CO<sub>2</sub> starvation'''.
  
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[[file:CO2-harvesting-boya 845x480.png |thumb|600px|Concept art of boya for collection of atmospgheric CO<sub>2</sub>. [http://apm.bplaced.net/w/images/e/ec/CO2-harvesting-boya.svg SVG] - [[Carbon dioxide collector unit]]s ]]
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= Medium =
  
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Seaborne air using ships of easy handlable size like [[mobile carbon dioxide collector buyo]]s
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Sub-classes:
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have the potential to fulfill the global energy needs and remove the the excess CO<sub>2</sub> that had accumulated due to burning of fossile fuels along with other unwanted gasses of industrial origin.
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* stationary carbon dioxide collectors (see section "Land" below)
 +
* [[mobile carbon dioxide collector]]s <br> Locating [[diamondoid solar cells|solar cells]] for CO<sub>2</sub> recuperation sparsely distributed in the air or on the sea instead of placing them concentrated in one place on the ground may be good for environmental (no pave-over) and political reasons.
  
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Swimming units have the benefit of easier access to wind power and easier propulsion. They can easily be kept stationary.
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== Land (more or less stationary) ==
  
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= Air =
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[[Nanofactory|Nanofactories]] may use air directly as a building material.<br>
 +
The filtering system may be more or less integrated (more or less detachable).
 +
Speedier operation without loss of efficiency needs bigger filter systems that are less likely to be directly integrated.
 +
Going from fully integrated to "fully" separated one could imagine: just two ports then a flap on a hinge then separable devices connected with a "cable".
  
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Micro airships:
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The extreme case would be global distances between carbon dioxide collection and carbon consumption.
 +
This goes a bit against "[[material deglobalisation]]" which is one of the main benefits of advanced atomically precise manufacturing technology. So one might avoid long range carbon dioxide (or carbon) transport for small scale low throughput applications like mechanosynthesis of cloths. Long range material transport may be more sensible for e.g. the fast erection of large scale structures like whole cities.
  
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* have a very lightweight bubble as main body in a size range between 10um and 100.000um
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For the extreme case of global distances a global [[infinitesimal bearing|infinitesimally bearing]] [[tube mail]] [[capsule transport]] (alongside a [[Global microcomponent redistribution system]]) could be envisioned. The transportation of other building materials (like e.g. titanium, aluminum and silicon) that are not present in the air and need to be mined from solid material would benefit from such a system anyway.
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* use depending on size thermal heating or hydrogen for lift
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* use their surface for harvesting of solar energy
+
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* are capable of water capture and splitting for compensation of hydrogen diffusion loss
+
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* may be capable of carbon dioxide capture ond splitting
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* may be capable of self replication
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* may (if malicious) create some nasty gasses
+
  
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== Microscale ==
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Fully consumer-device detached collectors-devices have been proposed that feature a structure that makes them look slightly akin to trees.<br>{{todo|what are the benefits of this shape vs flat solar cells}}<br> Placement in inhabited areas - environmental issues!<br>
 +
{{wikitodo|find and link existing paper}}
  
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Violate spill avoidance guideline (that is keeping microcomponents and the like in macroscopic machine phase blocks)
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== Water (seaborne) ==
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(see waste & recycling)
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* Active dust?
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[[file:CO2-harvesting-boya 845x480.png |thumb|300px|Concept art of buoy for collection of atmospheric CO<sub>2</sub>. [http://apm.bplaced.net/w/images/e/ec/CO2-harvesting-boya.svg SVG] - [[mobile carbon dioxide collector buoy]]s ]]
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* [[the grey goo meme|self replicating aerovores]] (name coined by J. Storrs Hall) - note: potentially misleading bioinspired name (wrongly suggests adaptability)
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* Danger for lung breathing life forms
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=== Disassembly attack ===
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Seaborne [[mobile carbon dioxide collector buoy]]s of a size that is easy to handle.
 +
Swimming units have the benefit of easier access to wind power and easier propulsion. They can easily be kept stationary. They need only plain air as lifting medium can use the wind for propulsion and are easier to collect manually (skimming) if something goes wrong.
  
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Malicious parties could create an airborne micro ship that does try to find AP products and try to disassemble their [[microcomponent]]s for whatever reason.
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== Air (airborne) ==
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That only works if they are mede of microcomponents that is they are non-monolothic. It would be bad if [[recycling|recyclability]] gets sacrificed only to defend against this.
+
  
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As we know from tree pollen, particles as big as several tens of micrometers can be highly mobile in air and todays average houses let plenty of them leak in even if all windows and doors are closed. So one can't avoid such an attack by going indoors in conventionally built houses. Also usually one don't want to be forced to go through airlocks all the time and AP products shoulden't be confined to indoor use only.
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Micro airships: [[Mobile carbon dioxide collector balloon]]
  
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One way to defend against such attacks may be to use [[hirachical locking]] that converges to some combination lock stones ([[locking mechanism]]s). The size of the protection code must be sufficciently big or else there must be very vew such stones since in the size of such an attacking particle fits a pretty powerful AP computer thus a massively parallel brute force coordinated random trial attack may be possible if the concentration of attacking microships is big enough. Even with a [[self limitation for safety|physical enforced delay between unlocking tests]] a too weak protection my be broken quickly.
+
* have a very lightweight bubble as main body in a size range between 10um and 100.000um
 +
* use depending on size thermal heating or hydrogen for lift
 +
* use their surface for harvesting of solar energy
 +
* are capable of water capture and splitting for compensation of hydrogen diffusion loss
 +
* may be capable of carbon dioxide capture and splitting
 +
* may be capable of self replication
 +
* may (if malicious) create some nasty gases
  
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To speed up their operation they may use air to self replicate (making them assemblers of the worst kind) or use the victim structures microcomponents for themselves if they fit or tap some energy that might be stored in the victim-structure.
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=== Extraterrestrial application ===
  
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['''todo:''' can this be used for spam?]
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* usage on [[Venus]]
 +
* usage in [[Gas giant atmospheres]]
  
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==Questions==
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= Questions =
 +
 
 +
* packing and shipping CO<sub>2</sub> or preprocessing it right away?
  
 
'''To investigate:''' If replicative how fast could they replicate (doubling time) depending on their diameter? <br>
 
'''To investigate:''' If replicative how fast could they replicate (doubling time) depending on their diameter? <br>
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'''To investigate:''' [[AP manufactured solar cells]] & [[mechanosynthetic carbon dioxide splitting]]
 
'''To investigate:''' [[AP manufactured solar cells]] & [[mechanosynthetic carbon dioxide splitting]]
  
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==Alternate forms==
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= Related =
  
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For swimming ones - micro ships - essentially the same reasoning applies.
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* '''[[Carbon capture buoy scenario]]'''
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They need only plain air as lifting medium must be sturdier can use the wind for propulsion and are easier to collect manually (skimming) if something goes wrong.
+
----
 +
* Mobile in general: [[Mobile carbon dioxide collector]]
 +
* Seaborne: [[Mobile carbon dioxide collector buoy]]
 +
* Airborne: [[Mobile carbon dioxide collector balloon]]
 +
* [[Mechanosynthetic carbon dioxide splitting]]
 +
* [[Air as a resource]]
 +
* [[Mining with gem-gum-tec]]
 +
----
 +
* Josh Hall's high altitude mirror bubble concept (not necessarily handling atmospheric gasses) [todo: add video link]
 +
* [[Mobile mesoscale robotic device]]s "nanobots"
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* [[Mobile nanoscale robotic device]]s "microbots"
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* [[atmosphere sentinels]]
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* large scale storage of carbon dioxide (side-note: collection and storage together make "sequestation")
 +
* [[Large scale construction]]
  
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==Extraterrestrial application==
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[[Category:Large scale construction]]
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(''SciFi warning!'') [Todo: needs rewriting]
+
  
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* usage in [[Gas giant atmospheres]]
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= External Links =
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* usage on [[Venus]]
+
  
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The upper layers of the Venusian atmosphere would be the perfect place for replicative micro airships.
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* Diamond Trees (Tropostats): A Molecular Manufacturing Based System for Compositional Atmospheric Homeostasis - 2010 Robert A. Freitas Jr. [http://www.imm.org/Reports/rep043.pdf pdf]
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There they would provide us with the opportunity of doing an terra-forming or rather terra-changing experiment.
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* Video: [https://vimeo.com/153449899 "Tropostats: Nanotechnology Harnessing Photosynthesis"] (very conceptual)
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If the extracted carbon can be sealed good enough against the frequent and powerful strokes of lightning (questionable)
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and the extracted carbon can be hold at high altitudes until the lower atmosphere have cooled enough so that the carbon could be put to the ground without reigniting (questionable)
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then you end up with a cool superdense (too dense for humans) oxygen atmosphere (and a very dangerous situation). Now its the question whether the excess oxygen can be bound into the soil or ridiculous amounts of hydrogen or other abundant reducing elements have to be carried over.
+
  
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(Even with the complete solar energy hitting Venus directly converted to chemical energy this endeavor would take a very very long time - '''todo:''' show the math - also just for removal for sulfuric acid and SO3)
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['''todo:''' split off macro and self replicating aspect from this page - distribute to sub-pages of [[Mobile robotic device]] ]
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What would a Venus with its over 100 day long day and higher solar constant look like if all the carbon where bound and most of the oxygen where trapped into the soil or water? Would there be lots of poisonous heavy metals around? Would there be any dry land left? How high would the waves get with the extreme winds at the day night borders? What about water vapor clouds, lack of magnetosphere ...?
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['''todo:''' tackle size and mobility decisions ] - done?
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+
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== Related ==
+
−
 
+
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* Josh Hall's high altitude mirror bubble concept (not necessarily handling atmospheric gasses) [todo: add video link]
+
  
 
[[Category:Technology level III]]
 
[[Category:Technology level III]]
 
[[Category:Disquisition]]
 
[[Category:Disquisition]]
 
[[Category:Site specific definitions]]
 
[[Category:Site specific definitions]]

Latest revision as of 15:28, 20 June 2023

This article is speculative. It covers topics that are not straightforwardly derivable from current knowledge. Take it with a grain of salt. See: "exploratory engineering" for what can be predicted and what not.
There's plenty of building material in the atmosphere. SVG
(variable atmospheric humidity omitted)

This page is about devices for the extraction of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. The prime focus is earth's atmosphere.

Two motivations must be separated:

  • greenhouse gas reduction
  • carbon extraction for productive use

Solar powered carbon dioxide collectors have the potential to fulfill the global energy needs and remove the excess CO2 that had accumulated due to burning of fossil fuels along with other unwanted gases of industrial origin.

About the optimal size of devices

Devices for the removal of CO2 from the atmosphere do not need and probably should not be able to do self replication. Making such devices macroscopic seems to be a better alternative than making them in the micro- to nanoscale. Big devices:

  • can work more efficient -- just like pants pocket sized nanofactories can operate much more efficient than ultra compact (sub microscale) molecular assemblers
  • are obviously easier to handle (even collectible by hand)
  • are less problematic in regards to environmental spill

Side-notes:

  • Every conscientiously designed mobile (airborne/seaborne) device must care about its fate after their end of service.
  • Carbon extraction must stop at a certain level - otherwise all plants on earth may be in severe danger of CO2 starvation.

Medium

Sub-classes:

  • stationary carbon dioxide collectors (see section "Land" below)
  • mobile carbon dioxide collectors
    Locating solar cells for CO2 recuperation sparsely distributed in the air or on the sea instead of placing them concentrated in one place on the ground may be good for environmental (no pave-over) and political reasons.

Land (more or less stationary)

Nanofactories may use air directly as a building material.
The filtering system may be more or less integrated (more or less detachable). Speedier operation without loss of efficiency needs bigger filter systems that are less likely to be directly integrated. Going from fully integrated to "fully" separated one could imagine: just two ports then a flap on a hinge then separable devices connected with a "cable".

The extreme case would be global distances between carbon dioxide collection and carbon consumption. This goes a bit against "material deglobalisation" which is one of the main benefits of advanced atomically precise manufacturing technology. So one might avoid long range carbon dioxide (or carbon) transport for small scale low throughput applications like mechanosynthesis of cloths. Long range material transport may be more sensible for e.g. the fast erection of large scale structures like whole cities.

For the extreme case of global distances a global infinitesimally bearing tube mail capsule transport (alongside a Global microcomponent redistribution system) could be envisioned. The transportation of other building materials (like e.g. titanium, aluminum and silicon) that are not present in the air and need to be mined from solid material would benefit from such a system anyway.

Fully consumer-device detached collectors-devices have been proposed that feature a structure that makes them look slightly akin to trees.
(TODO: what are the benefits of this shape vs flat solar cells)
Placement in inhabited areas - environmental issues!
(wiki-TODO: find and link existing paper)

Water (seaborne)

Concept art of buoy for collection of atmospheric CO2. SVG - mobile carbon dioxide collector buoys

Seaborne mobile carbon dioxide collector buoys of a size that is easy to handle. Swimming units have the benefit of easier access to wind power and easier propulsion. They can easily be kept stationary. They need only plain air as lifting medium can use the wind for propulsion and are easier to collect manually (skimming) if something goes wrong.

Air (airborne)

Micro airships: Mobile carbon dioxide collector balloon

  • have a very lightweight bubble as main body in a size range between 10um and 100.000um
  • use depending on size thermal heating or hydrogen for lift
  • use their surface for harvesting of solar energy
  • are capable of water capture and splitting for compensation of hydrogen diffusion loss
  • may be capable of carbon dioxide capture and splitting
  • may be capable of self replication
  • may (if malicious) create some nasty gases

Extraterrestrial application

Questions

  • packing and shipping CO2 or preprocessing it right away?

To investigate: If replicative how fast could they replicate (doubling time) depending on their diameter?
What is the limiting factor: solar-power for hydrogen generation, diluteness of CO2 or something else?

To investigate: Can they be made to actively propel themselves? Their high volume to mass ratio makes this rather difficult when there's even the slightest bit of wind. Flattening the bubbles drops the aerodynamic resistance significantly.

To investigate: AP manufactured solar cells & mechanosynthetic carbon dioxide splitting

Related

External Links

[todo: split off macro and self replicating aspect from this page - distribute to sub-pages of Mobile robotic device ] [todo: tackle size and mobility decisions ] - done?

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